Controlled slide? How to? What to watch for?

So I am getting comfortable enough on the SDR now that I can get the lap times down to a fast B group pace to a slow A group pace. Problem is that I am getting to the point where the tyres are beginning slide as I push for a faster time...which usually saps my confidence and I slow my pace down. I have no experience on dirt, so I really don't know how to ride when the bike gets loose. I just want to know what I should be looking for/feeling when the bike starts to slide. A controlled slide looks pretty common when I watch racing, and wonder if I eventually have to get the point where I have to learn it to get my lap times down. I know I need more work on the set-up of the bike, but will still get to a point where it will slide. Obviously low and high side slides are what is to be avoided, and usually come quickly without warning. I have felt both tyres slide on high-g turns and usually back off the throttle a bit, but wonder if I can just keep the throttle the same, or even power out of the turn. I usually feel most slides coming out of the last third of the turn and am beginning to bring the bike up. All advice/pointers welcome.

practise on a dirt bike

My advice, for what it's worth (feck all really) is that you don't want to slide,

In my opinion you want your tyres to be at there absolute limit, barely keeping traction, because that's when you are at your fastest, once they start to slide you'll actually lose time.

I saw an awesome demonstration of this a few years ago (top level bike racing on telly can't remember who),

rider one, in front really clean looking ride

rider two in second place backing into corners sliding out, looked awesome


rider one was faster because he was using his tyres to there limit,
rider two was slower because he was using his tyres just beyond there limit

as I say just my opinion so feel free to ignore it.

I agree. When was the last time you saw an F1 car drift or slide? When was the last time you saw a drag racer boil the tyres down the quarter mile? Traction = speed.

Of course sliding will slow you down but Stoner is sliding that Honda around like mad and it doesn't seem to be slowing him down much. Personally I'd go with advice offered and avoid slides. Think how many times those race boys have crashed by taking their tyres too far and losing a slide. Do you really want to see your SD going down the track?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, without the Nichols triple clamp, you will find yourself in an unrecoverable front end slide the faster you get.
I never lost confidence when I switched over and was sliding both tyres, with confidence later on.
It was the single biggest modification on my bike, in terms of performance.
Secondly, your tyres and times should not be causing slides. It is likely your riding style and/or excessive lean angle.
I was about to offer some tips at the track that day but.....you didn't seem interested.
From the pictures I can tell you that you need to hang off more and get your body down and forward. This will decrease the lean angle, thereby putting more rubber on the track.
The picture you posted of you sitting high in the saddle around turn 2 at Infineon made me immediately think that you better not be getting on the throttle there. Famous high side location and the bike needs to be pushed upright, with your body off and low for there to be enough rubber to let you crack the throttle.
Pictures show turns 9a, 2 and 7. Check out how much tyre is on the track and bear in mind my 1:49 pace. Compare with your lean angle in turn 2.
That was the single most difficult turn for me to get fast through.
If there is not anyone else to help you, I can give you an idea on how to go fast there on a SD. As far as I know, there are only two of us who have been in the under 1:49 bracket there on a SD.

BTW, it was nice meeting you. I hope your track days just get more fun!!

drswade: I am interested in your opinions. Not limited to body positioning however. Some sliding is fine, and some riders (e.g. professional racers) can get through corners somewhat more rapidly with some rear step out (Casey Stoner, Josh Hayes, Nick Hayden ... etc.). Most of we mere mortals cannot. I do agree that smooth is the order of the day - in all one does. And as you point out, wacking the throttle open too early on corner (exit) can result in impressive superman impersonations. Sliding for most of us on-track, should probably be avoided. There's a reason TC exists - and its not just liability prevention.

On the subject of front slides (understeer), push or whatever one wants to call it, as I like to trail brake deep (to the apex often), this description of understeer somewhat sudden on the SD is a real concern. I find it manageable under most circumstances, but have also have experienced that less-than-pleasurable event of the front suddenly washing out (not on the SD). BTW - Broken ribs suck.

On the note of effectively lengthening the trail through use of the Nichols upper triple, did you find this more or less beneficial than the adjustable shock bottom? Of course, the same result can be achieved with longer fork-caps (not commercially available that I know of - but I have a machine shop ready to address my "special projects").

I am also of the view that correct front springs for a rider's weight are of value here - not just cranking up front preload to get sag more or less correct. Correct springs also preserves factory trail (or in some cases increases it some). Of course, this also often necessitates re-valving. This is being done on my forks now.

On the the standard SD compared to the SDR: Where trail is longer to begin with; rake slightly less steep; and the shock a few mm shorter, I am questioning the benefit of the Nichols shock bottom ($400). I'd like to read your candid thoughts on this. Perhaps this is in detail elsewhere (link) ?

Any thoughts on front tyre (race tyre) profiles contributing/detracting from feel/feedback - that being a steeper "V" profile versus a rounder profile up front. The usual tradeoffs on turn-in are obvious (to me), so no need to elaborate on this. I'm thinking that a more-round profile is preferable on the SD, as turn-in is one thing that it doesn't need improvement on.

On this same note, 180/55 v. 190/55 RACE rear tyres: comments WRT to same ? I am inclined here to continue with 180/55s on the SD.

Of note - I have read all of Go-go's remarks here and in his blog. I've also spoken with the folks at Nichols, so no need to re-address that stuff either.

Again, interested in your opinion.

I agree with Jody.

If you have good throttle control and track craft you can go very fast without sliding.

That said, the SD is one of the nicest bikes to slide a little on corner exit, it has a fairly flat torque curve and fairly modest power.

I had more small, controlable "fun" slides on my first superduke than any other bike. It doesn't happen hardly at all these days, further proof I've slowed down a bit.

I am no scientist. Well, actually I am technically, but I don't have the facts or figures about rake, trail, etc. on the SD nor the SDR.
Since all of the development on the triple was done for GoGo on the SDR I would have to assume that the front needed to be brought up by those 20mm.
When TriValley brought me on their team, the deal was that I would run the custom parts on my bike too. This wasn't to pimp the Nichols stuff. It was to assist in my success for the racing season. Although the change in geometry was so significant that I had to relearn the bike, the stability was immediately palpable. This combined with my going to the same tyres as the rest of the team's bikes: 120/60 V slick front and the 190/50 DOT rear. Michelin Power One
I absolutely loved the tyres and the way the bike felt once the suspension was dialed in.
It should also be noted that I did nothing to the suspension except swap out for a the 180 spring in the rear. I raced at 190 lbs (80 kgs+/-) and the stiffer spring was necessary to avoid sacrificing sag. With the stock spring I had to crank up the preload because I was pushing the front in sweepers. This was caused by my bike "squatting" and not forcing the front into the ground. The stiffer spring nailed it.

I started the season doing 1:59s at Infineon and ended with 1:49s and complete confidence.

I cannot comment on sliding too much as I just started doing it with both tyres during my last race weekend. I had been sliding the rear everywhere before but only due to my greedy throttle. It was always manageable with my Michelins.
I do remember that in a right hand sweeper that followed the back straight at Las Vegas, other guys would break and slow quite a bit whilst I would just touch the brake for steering and crank the throttle. I would describe it as "sling shotting" around those guys because of my ability to stay on the throttle. The sliding was a bit strange at first but became second nature almost immediately.
I wouldn't agree that sliding slows your times any more than braking through a turn slows you down.
It all adds up to entrance and exits.
I see no point of any track day rider getting this insane about riding, personally.
I only did it because of the incredible competition in our clubs out here.
In the AFM, even pro's who come here to poach very often get beaten.

Man, I miss it all just too much!

ON another note about tyre height caused by putting on a 190. I used the gearing commander website to check ratios once and to my surprise the top speed was EXACTLY what my GPS said was my top speed at redline in Fontana at Auto Club Speedway: 142.9 mph!! I was like the slowest dude in any of my races. Even the electric bike was doing 158!

Thanks much for the input. Interesting choice of front tyre - which would have reduced trail further (!), and that taller rear tyre would reduce it further still. Combined with the SDR's shorter trail and longer shock to begin with, the shorter shock bottom makes sense. Will have to run some numbers, but I'm even more convinced that the fork bottom for my use on an SD (not SDR), isn't of great value.

Also interesting is your use of the "V" profile (which I use on my regular track bike, which benefits from it). I realise that 120/60 PowerOne (race) slicks are closer to profile of a 120/70 street tyre, than a street 120/60. But you feel the shorter sidewall was the way to go - ? I'm guessing you tried both, as well as the PowerOne DOT front - ?

I do have to run more spring than you. All there is to that. Ed Sorbo of Lindemann Engineering is installing custom springs (rate) in my SD forks as I write this. These are of stock length and diameter, requiring no modifications to install. Appropriate revalving is also being done. This will raise the front some for me while attaining desired sag (= increased trail).

I ask only as a point of reference: Do you recall what lap times were you getting at ACS (top speeds aside for the moment)?

All in the name of slide avoidance folks!

I remember it like it was just a slight slide all the way out from the power on ,not a mcCoy style powerslide (on a tz250 )but you can feel the bike driving and being ever so slightly out of line and scrabbling at the same time, its not visable its just a seat of the pants thing,that for me(that bike) gave me the best laptimes.

Front just tucked if owt

If you're sliding already at a slower pace then you're body positioning/english is wrong. You're upper body should be constantly moving and floating around the bike while your legs are locked in with one ass cheek off. You must be relaxed, letting the bike flow where it wants which should be on line with the appropriate entry line and inputs. When the bike starts sliding it's hard to relax. You tense up, the bike slides more. You slow down, you go home feeling bad, or you continue pushing and you crash!

Relax, breathe, flow. Exaggerate your upper body. Avatar>

And when you're doing everything right, let the bike talk to you and ride like this guy...

Body positioning is my biggest "peev" right now. I am constantly working on it, but revert back. I usually get one cheek off the seat, but I don't get my torso to hang off. I do well when coached, and welcome any advice when at the track. I hang off more on the sweepers because I remind myself to do it, but it has not become habit. Thanks for the constructive advice...more is welcome.

Lead with your head, put your head into the turn, and slowly bring the bike around. Kiss the mirror. I like to go out and gradually build up my pace. Hit the marks and flow. EXAGGERATE! Steer with your upper body.

I like the exaggerate line. The best way to exaggerate is when you get home or when you re-enter the paddock. Thell all or any who will listen, how sideways you were through turn three.
Fisherman do it all the time, old men do it about their conquests when they were a lad. May as well introduce into your two wheeled prowess.
Just joking, If you use too much hang off into a corner that it really isnt dictating that your speed needs to negotiate. The only thing you end up with is less lean angle and a good lesson asto how much getting to the inside helps. You can exaggerate as a practice all the time and you will get the benefit of getting very comfortable hanging out. The added benefit is it also lets you get rediculuis drive out of a corner and you can feel the tyre light up. There have been stories of traction controlled bikes telling writers that they were spinning it up exiting corners and they did not know they had wheel spin till the TC made them aware of it. Baby steps, you will know when enough is enough. Till then grab a handfull at the far side of the exit when you still have lean but know your on the way up and she'll spin the rear out just enough that you will be finishing the last bit pointed in a place that lets you grab even more. No exaggeration.

Three words: California Superbike School. Do it. Don't worry about what some of the guys here say about it. You won't be disappointed.

Just a quick one for you experienced track guys...I have a std duke not an r is there that much of a difference on the track? If so anything I can do to make it more track focused?? Also do you need a slipper clutch? Or canthe bike be ridden fast and relatively safely without it?

On the subject of body positioning: I was never quite limber enough to excessively hang off like some do. I think that for some it works to exaggerate and for others not. What really matters is getting that weight low and off however you can accomplish it. Sitting up tall in the saddle is the beginning of the end, IMO. With those huge bars it is also quite difficult to ride like you would a proper race bike.
If I ever ride or race again I will still probably look for a SDR to use at the track.
I just got so much pleasure out of guys coming by and saying "so you are on a motard?" and then flying by them on the brakes or around the inside of a turn. That was so much fun!!

@ Hotbrakes: The Japanese ride very well in the rain. That guy was putting on a clinic for rain riding!

@ Davey: On the slipper clutch: My bike was just unruly before I got one. After I got one I stopped "blipping" the throttle and that my friend, is pure laziness. I wouldn't race without one no matter how ridiculously expensive they are.

@SDNerd: I was never super comfortable at ACS. First time I was there it was 105F degrees in the garages and the track was a bit greasy. I also pussed out in turn one which will kill your flow around that track. Second time and last time I was there it was 46F degrees and scary cold with overcast. More traction issues. I did however get comfortable flying through turn one, finally. Both of my trips to that track can be seen on youtube. Even though I wasn't exactly fast there I still beat quite a few cats on their home track. The SD just sucks at tracks that need top speed. What was funny was that I would get passed on the front straight then reel them in just before the back straight. Then they would pass my like I was standing still at the end of the back straight and then they would slow me down through the other technical portions. I never nailed the turn before the back straight. I looked for my old GPS files on lap times there and can't find them. I seem to remember 1:36s as my best times although I think it was more like 1:39 in January. MAN! Was it cold!
One great thing about living near Infineon is that you get good there or you spend a lot of money on parts. That track is pure trial by fire! I love it!!! Top speed means shit there if you can't turn well.

I remember last year Cameron Beaubier was on the track with me. He jetted by me out of the carousel and then I almost ass packed him into T7. I then proceeded to get towed around the track for almost a whole lap. I wanted to follow him just to watch him back it in everywhere. First time I had ever seen it done to that level.
Now look how he rides on track days!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au0UHLQofPs

When I raced in the Solo 20 middleweight race in LV, I got passed by Melissa Paris, Bryce Prince, Joey Pascarella, Ryan Matter, Austin DeHaven and Tyler O'Hara on the back straight like I was stopped!
They were battling it out and what a thrill it was to see! Scary though considering the delta between us.
(Thanks for allowing me to reminisce.)

Thanks Dutch and drswade for the info... Done alot of riding on the track, think I've been building riding the SD on the track up too much in my mind.. Pretty sure after one lap the nerves will settle... Never learnt how to blip a throttle though ( been spoilt with superbikes that have all had slipers) so may have o keep my eyes open for a good deal!