SD Trackbike Build 2012: Gas flow and Hi Comp pistons

I thought I would post up here a thread showing what we're doing and the results we get.
The story so far:
Back ground
My SD is the first brought into the UK by KTM, it was the UK press bike and then it was used as the prototype for the Superduke battle series and used as a guest bike in that series.
I bought it at the end of that season and it has been my track bike ever since.
Its been through many modifications over time but the specification it ran to last year was :
DNA Stage 3 airbox
Akrapovic Evo system
YoYoDyne slipper clutch
Butterflies removed
Rev limit set to 10,500

Towards the end of last year it was clear that the SD was making less and less power.
I took the bike into Kev @ Projex-UK and we stripped the top end of the motor and found this:





As you can see the piston was on the verge of break up and we had lost one of the compression rings completely.
There was light scoring on the bore but apart from that I would say I had been extremely lucky.
Subsequent research has revealed that raising the rev limit on the SD is a direct route to piston failure so - on a positive note it is felt that we know why the motor failed.

Given that I was going to have to rebuild the motor and fit new pistons anyway I decided to go the whole hog and do the job properly:
The heads would be gas flowed and skimmed
High compression pistons would be used
High lift cams would be installed as well (already had these)
Extra crank case breathing would be added
RC8R trumpets would be tested and used if they give any gain.
New bodywork painted in Candy Sun-God Orange: we have gone with GSX-R1000K6 bodywork this year.

Suspension
The forks have got progressively worse so it is time to sort them out.
The forks and shock have been removed and taken to RJ Superbike at Mallory Park. Rob and Ady know all there is to know about race bike preparation, especially suspension and are K-Tec dealers.
The shock is being rebuilt by K-Tec themselves and is being re valved and shimmed at the same time
The forks were going to have a K-Tec kit fitted but they aren't doing a replacement system for the SD any more so we have settled for a complete rebuild and replacing the original needles with tapered ones that will actually make a difference when you move a few clicks!
Certainly we should notice a significant difference because the forks were in a bad state internally with one chamber completely dry and the compression needle jammed on one of the legs.
Suspension should be ready for pickup next Friday (24-2-12)

Pistons
The pistons are CP Carillo items that have been re machined finished and coated and sourced from Tornado wia Sean Wilson racing (Tornado agents in the UK) who was also the source of the high lift cams.
The pistons are gorgeous - engine jewelry:



As you can see the valve cut outs are enormous. These babies increase the compression ratio from 10:1 to 13:1.

The heads and barrels were sent to Bob Farnham for gas flowing and relining respectively.
The heads arrived back this week and the amount of metal removed is, IMO, quite startling. Hopefully you will be able to see in these pictures:
(The white stuff is assembly grease btw and NOT because I lurve them so much)
Inlet:


Exhaust:



The next stage is engine assembly and a decision as to whether to run up with stock cams or to go with the high lift cams right from the go.
We are planning to improve the crank case breathing by disconnecting the breathers that go from the front cam cover to the oil tank, fitting two more just like it to the rear cam cover and routing all four into a catch tank.
The oil tank will be vented to the atmosphere though a little K&N type filter.
This should prove to be cost - effective and, er, effective.
Engine build is next week so I will update this thread as we make progress.

Have you got a photo of the stock parts before the Bob Farnham work? I seem to remember there was one on here a while ago but can't remember if it was yours.

Looks good though. I thought it would be a polished finish but I guess the additional work to do this would not be worth the gains.

Those pistons look quality, are the flies and shafts removed or just the flies ?

Mmmmmmmm

Dave....thats close to porn

Yep. There's some lovely bling in there and no mistake.
Sorry: shafts removed as well.

Hi Dave,
That looks awesome,could you please give me an idea on the price of the engine work youve had done at Bob Farnhams and the pistons.

Bob charged me £375 for the heads and barrel work. I believe he would charge about £300 - £325 for just the heads.
The pistons worked out at about £450 from Tornado via Sean Wilson Racing but I understand that there is a very good company in Birmingham that will do custom forged pistons for less.
The cams were about the same money (exchange rate fluctuations) but I didn't use my cams i bought a 2nd hand set from the US for £125 delivered.

I'm not sure what a full gasket set costs as I bought two complete sets from Bracken just before they closed for good but you'd have to budget £250 - £300 if you're doing a full top end rebuild and are going to replace the cam chain tensioner system etc

The cam cover breathers work out at about £26+p&p plus hoses and catch tank.

Hope this helps.

Dave did you work out a list of parts with Demon Tweaks?

Have you got any links or part no's for the breather stuff and info.
Ive sent you pm
thanks

Update 1/3/12:

Part numbers for the cam cover breathers are:
0770080020 o-ring 8x2 silicone
0912050103 AH screw din0912-M 5x10
60038082000 angle connector lc8 03
69006015050 bracket f. efi plug
times 2 of course!

Biggest problem has been finding 10mm diameter shims that for the high lift cams.
I need shims that go from 3.15 to 3.5 and KTM shims only go out to 3.20.
GW-Racing in Germany who actually reprofiled the cams can only provide stock sizes and have gone awfully quiet when asked if they've actually run a motor with these cams profiles in and how the hell they solved the shim problem.
They did suggest that i cut the valves back into the head by 1mm to bring the gaps back into tolerance but, as I've already paid for my gas flowing I feel that that is not an option for this year as grinding the valves back would mask some of the work that Bob has done.

Any suggestions would be gratefully received!
I have a source of 2nd hand shims in the states that might do the job and I can always get custom shims made but its £150 - £200 a set which is a bit much TBH.
We may end up running stock cams this year and do the work on the high list cams this winter. (funds permitting of course)

Kev is doing the work to find exactly what sizes we need tomorrow so I can get the shims ordered.

The plan is to build the motor next week using stock cams and with the breathers fitted.
Once the motor is run up we'll do comparative dyno runs for as many different specs as we can so we'll have an idea as to performance of:
high comp pistons and gas flow with cam breathers
high comp pistons and gas flow without cam breathers
high comp pistons and gas flow with RC8 velocity stacks
high comp pistons and gas flow & high lift cams
high comp pistons and gas flow with RC8 vs & high lift cams without
high comp pistons and gas flow with RC8 vs & high lift cams with everything

Place your bets now for the no-bull dyno figure for the all-in version?

v rod shims

Thanks for posting the pictures of the port clean up. I was told years ago by a guy who polished his ports to a mirror finish that he wished he would never had done so. He said it just sucked more gas. He thought it did not give the gas and air time or chance to mix it up. The grain of the finish marks from the sanding are at 90 degrees to the flow in these photos. That looks to me to help tumble the air / gas also to increase mixture, and looks intentional. On other hot rodded port jobs I have seen over the years, work has been done on the down wind side of the valve guides to feather air flow. Can't really see anything on the far side from these photos. Looks like a nice job to me, but I am just a shade tree gear head with open ears and eyes.

Ah. Thank you for that!
I have heard from PJ Engineering that the Barrels Will be ready on Thursday so, as Kev will be at Donington that day, I shall pick them up and deliver on Friday.
Assuming that all happens according to plan the planned run up date will either be Friday 30th or Saturday 31st which will give me a week to deal with any issues and fit the rebuilt shock and do the baseline setup.

Due to all sorts of f-ups I finally picked up the barrels from PJ Engineering ( http://www.pjme.co.uk/ ) today and delivered them to Kev.
When I picked them up the guy held up a barrel and showed me the bores before popping them back in the box.
It wasn't until I got to Projex that I had the chance to have a really good look at the barrels.
This is what they look like:







What you can't see is that where the paint looks rough it is in fact so soft you can scrape it off with your fingernail and where is looks smooth its rock hard.
Its all a different colour of course.
When I phoned them (PJE) about it apparently I should have known that replating the barrels would do this and I'm a dick for having 'an attitude' for the state that they left them in.

Question is: are they right? Should I have known? Is it obvious to everyone except me (and Kev BTW) that the barrels would be returned with paint missing and finger marks and in a generally scabrous state?
I'd just like to add that they didn't tell me up front and didn't tell me when I picked them up and didn't offer to recoat the barrels before or after.
So I'd just like to know: am I being a dick or just taken for one?

What did they say caused the coating to do that?

Without a doubt they should have explained what may happen when they carry out this kind of work, id be fuming

i'd be piss'd but think it's up to the end user to do their homework .

i suppose it's difficult to match the paint now but now you have to opportunity to trick them out ....
there's probably NO WAY to protect the finish when replating .

can these guys expect that no one knows anything and have to explain every thing before they proceed. Maybe .

when i got dyno work done i knew nothing about the "Systems" electronics / maps and all that , the guy took the time
to explain everything to me - hours ... Can we expect shops to spend that time ( no charge ) ....

i suppose it would have been very simple for this plating shop to just say " You are aware that your paint's gona be fook'd "
but do we blame them ? Good question !!!!

legally you'd probably loose the argument !

the acid dip process they put them through has obviously just torn into the paint!

Theyve presumed that as youve asked for such a service, you obviously new what was involved and never thought to mention the side effects

I cant belive that they didnt warn you or offer a refinishing service as theyve only done half a job IMHO

Does anybody even no what the standard finish is? powder coat?

They said it was the acid they use during the removal of the nicasil bore coating.

That should definately been mentioned mate.
Time should always be taken to advise a customer of what is going on.
If they are aware already, it's a 30 second discussion, if not, potential problems averted.
I hope you can safely get them soda blasted? Or is that too harsh for Magnesium?

Low mileage barrels here ....................



They should have definatly told you. Thats like going to Kwikfit for a tyre change and them scratching your rims "because thats what can happen". No. They warn you of any negatives before hand.

Stick to your guns. Go in to them and go fuuuuckin mental. Like total veins poppin on the forehead mental. Make sure you spit when you shout too, always adds to the mentalness. Make sure they get the point that your pissed about the paint, but are even more pissed they called you a dick. Shit got personal. Personal shit requires violence. If you need the throw something then do so. But feel it out and think quick befre you add this part. Throwing the barrel through the front window then having to go back in to collect it will take the edge off it all.


I give his supreme advice for free. No charge. Honestly.

Yep!

That'll get you arrested. MMM.... MMM...

If you paid with a credit card call your company and ask em about compensation? Looks like pretty poor service to me. Were that not at all sympathetic?
Shit customer relations. Did you suggest you might be posting on forums about your dissatisfaction with their performance?

Thanks guys.
TBH I lost the plot completely over the phone and at Kev's - its a good job I didn't see it at the shop as I can be a little, er, rash at times.
I will do the credit card thing tomorrow and see what comes of it.
But, yes, I have asked Kev to refinish in Orange.

At least getting them powder coated won't be expensive dude. I can totally see why you are pissed though. Hard to believe they didn't mention what would happen. It's not like it's something we do every week

Power coating takes heat to bake the paint.... ...I know the jugs can take some heat.....but it will not be bolted down to a motor case. I am not an expert on this topic but if it was my jugs I would seak out an expert before power coating.
They are the Dicks for not telling you that you will have to spend time preping and repainting your jugs. They screwed up and know it and are just trying brush you off. Take a copy of this post in for them and let them see how many others on this site think they are the FOOKIN' DICKS on this one. They need to know they have to tell next customers of this out come. (Prep and repaint).
Before you put this motor together RE- CHECK THE OTHER WORK THEY DID. Do not trust their work. What else are they not telling you

what coating is it?

I just went to the PJEngineering website to have a look.

There are so many spelling and grammatical mistakes on just the first few pages - I'd judge them on that alone. Always worries me when businesses can't even write properly, makes me think that they treat the work in the same way. There's something about the way it's written - especially on the reboring page. I wouldn't send my engines there.

That is a shit job!!! If that where my barrels they would have to be surgically removed from someone's face if I got them back like that.

I'm not a metalurgist but I know how to prevent this. The proper way is to rubber coat (or use other suitable material) surfaces that don't need to be painted, blasted or come in contact with acid.
When finished the coating can be easily removed without damage to whatever is under it, hence even grease or candle wax works for acid, just steam clean it off later...

In my world either you tell people that there is a risk or side effect or you fix the f00kup!

Find someone who can blast them with wallnut shells, yes walnuts! Don't use sand or alu oxide as it leaves a shit finish. Then repaint them, that will be the easiest. To prevent blasting the bores use rubber like old inner tubes or so to seal them

+1 On what Bic says, If they can't spell or take the effort to get someone else to check the spelling on their site, the work will be accordingly shite!

....on the bright side...it does give you the chance to get them finished in what ever colour takes you fancy..... ORANGE IT IS THEN


.

Kev has now painted the barrels. A significant improvement on the mess PJEngineering left me with I hope you agree?



Also for those who were asking here are a few photos to compare the original against the new cams:




As you can see - although what I ordered was a re profile of the originals what I got was completely new cams

Motor should run for the first time on Thursday.

Looking forward to seeing this flying round Anglesey Dave

Smart as......now they really do look the part

Kick ass Dave making me wish I'd had my barrels done black to match my cam covers now.

Much better!

Whats happening with the bodywork now Dave?

Erm maybes .....

A TL1000 May have been a better bet?

Sorry I am of course forgetting. this is the "Oft mischeifised SD Hooliganism Forum".
As opposed to:


viewforum.php?f=19

Where. Of course, all of us SD owners can ignore(Just like me ). And within your own "Self Indulgence". and wish you....were normal? Like 99% of all SD owners.

Anyways. Lovely to see such dedication.

If only, it were. Real W.

BTW. Are you really a Brit?

Quick update:
Kev assembled the motor on Sunday but couldn't get it to actually turn over by hand, on the bench.
It seems that the piston skirt is thicker than stock and is fouling the oil spray nozzles on both front and rear barrels.
The plan is to shave 1mm off the side of each spray nozzle so there is sufficient clearance.
Something tells me that all the tales of high - output Superdukes with high comp pistons might be a myth/lie as no-one said anything about having to modify the engine internals or the cam gaps outside the max sizes from KTM.
I'm feeling very much like a guinea pig here!
Plan is still to start the motor on Thursday but I'll update tomorrow afternoon.

This is the problem with being the 1st to do something different. your always going to hit problems! your the automotive equivalent of a land mine sweeper

So where the barrels meant to orange? or did they mess em up so you painted em orange?

Looking forward to seeing some dyno action

Dan, look here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18792&start=25#p224926

Im still none the wiser, where they painted by the re-borers in the grey or was the paint flaking off the original paint from the reboring?

Update 5/4/12:
Turning the motor over the pistons hit the spark plugs!
On one just enough to close the gap to nothing, on the other just enough to crack the ceramic.
No chance of making Anglesey now.
At a bit of a loss what to do TBH.
Should I strip the motor and have the tops of the pistons machined?
Can you buy 'shorter' spark plugs or ones with no protruding electrodes?
Should I simply put a washer on the replacement plus so it doesn't stick so far into the combustion chamber?
If I do that will it effect the burn efficiency?
JHMFTDC
I think I might just hammer my winkie flat and go wherever it is that beavers make a living.

For me the possibility of machining the top of the pistons would be the choice. Maybe you could reach the weight of the original pistons by doing that. But i don't know how it would be for the rigidness of the pistons..

I wouldn't touch them tbh.

The pistons were sold to fit that motor. They don't. So they're not fit for purpose. You've not skimmed the head or reduced the gasket thickness, and if there were tolerance issues the piston co should surely advise on shorter plugs upon purchase.

What I don't understand is, if they manufacture them, then they must be selling them to guys building high output LC8 motors. 1/ Those guys must have had the same issue. 2/ Where are all these high output LC8's? If they're being build there must be info out there on them.

Dave have you got an oil separator in your cam breather setup? As I don't think this mod works without a separator. I only ask as I have just done the advanced breather and now have a problem with oil coming all the way up the pipe and out of the breather filter. I was only using about 5k of revs in half a mile, so god knows the mess that would be caused with a good spanking! Judging by the amount of oil everywhere you could empty the tank in a very short space of time I have got the filter at the highest possible place under the front of the tank and it made no difference. I'd hate to see you finally get the motor running and then run into this problem as well. Of course if you have a separator then great. If you do link me up bud

So Dave, you said Kev painted the barrels....did Kev use rattle cans or did he power coat. I see a rattle can in the picture, but am not sure if is paint. I know masking for power coat can be tricky. Thx

Have you checked for Brisk plugs? They might have something that would fit.

I have spent a lot of time on this so I hope its of some use to someone else:
the semi surface discharge plugs to use in the KTM superduke are NGK R2349-9
they are 2.6mm shorter than the stock (DCPR8E) plugs and run slightly cooler which is a good thing for those of us running our bikes in an increased state of tune.
they are a not inconsiderable £29.17ea but produce a much bigger and hotter spark, apparently.
mine are on order and I expect to get them early to mid next week.
ta da!

Fingers crossed for you mate, you and Kev need abit of luck sent your way!

Must be a PITA that it wasnt just a case of flow the heads, chuck the new pistons in and start her up

Good luck Dave, really hope this sorts the problem for you m8. You'll be pleased to hear that it will all be worth it as mine is pulling a treat so far.

Thanks everybody. Appreciate it.
Kev and I cannot believe how much of a bastard this has been. As advertised it should have been: strip, chuck in new bits, bolt it up, start and then sit back and marvel at the colossal power an LC8 can make.
Now I'd just settle for a bike that runs that I can take out to Silverstone with BASH.
Someday I'll look back on this and laugh!

You will look back and laugh insanely at the grunt your SD puts out and all this bollocks won't matter any more.

Well if nothing else the motor would make a mega spit roast motor for the Crashfest feast

Seriously Dave good luck with the beast. May it soon live and beath fire.

I think you're goin to have one mega SD after all the hassle mate.
Can't wait to see pics/vid of it runnig and flying round the track.
Thanks for beating a path that others, including myself, will follow.
I've got just about everything crossed for you big fella, good luck.

Sorry mates. Just poking my head back in here after a while off.
I am at a loss for why the plug interference wasn't noticed PRIOR to the plugs actually touching the pistons themselves.
I know nothing of your builder but this is something I would have noticed during the assembly and likely the oil nozzle problem too. I know we are breaking new ground here but not noticing the piston clearance is a pretty big cock up IMO. I also get nervous when I see any metal engine parts touching without assembly lube, like it looks in the cam/head photos. (My engine building expertise lies in VW engines, for the record.)

I believe that I saw a remark to find a reputable engine builder to help out. I would second that. I would be very afraid of firing up the motor on its own before it all spins nicely by hand.
Also, and I am sure I am not telling anyone anything new here, parts stretch at high heat/revs. What clears on the bench may not at temp/redline.

We are all awaiting a successful outcome to your brave journey! We ALL want to see you succeed in spades!

I thought I'd share with you that I have heard from Tornado (GW-Racing) in Germany via the UK agents Sean Wilson Racing. The Germans cut and pasted a couple of bits out of my email and this is what they wrote:
(Their comments in RED)

This is the response from Tornado this morning....


Upon assembly we found that the crankshaft could not be turned through 360deg because the piston skirt fouled the oil jet nozzle that cools the underside of the pistons. This problem was present at both the front and rear cylinders. We cured this problem by machining off 1mm from the nozzles.
We heard this also form other tuners, they also machined the piston.

We reassembled the motor and hand cranked again, checked that nothing fouled, reassembled and torqued the components. Hand cranked again to check and then mounted the motor in the chassis. Once the plugs were in we cranked the motor with the starter and found that the pistons foul the spark plugs (standard plugs with stock crush washers and torqued to correct setting). The pistons foul the plugs sufficiently to close the electrode gap and to break the ceramic insulator around the inner electrode.
Should use Racing Plugs with electrode inside. Or should have to shim under.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind our many readers that these components were bought as 'plug and play'. Tornado were asked, before any purchase was made, if there was anything I needed to be aware of, any skilled machining that needed to be done or if I could just in stall this stuff as a direct swap and run it. They were asked on more than one occasion and I was told only to make sure there was at least 1.5mm squish and that was it.

It obviously all got lost in translation

Talk about crap customer after sales service. If my company gave such poor service i would be sat on my arse right now occupying a rather damp cardboard box in a back street rather typing this from my sofa - fookin annoying Dave, thats all i can say

I wonder if theyl come up wiith any other little pearls of wisdom such as expect to lose 5HP with installation of your new pistons

have you ever talked to Tornado folks ? They do not manufactor pistons at all, so i wonder how they
should know if they fit or not. Their business is camshafts, you pistons are highly likly from
this company : http://cppistons.com/ should have this part number PCPKTMLC8/990

as some folks already meantioned i would be extremly careful with the needed gap between the piston
and the head. Turning by hand and turning at 9500 u/min is a different story. I would not
simply just another spark and trust that whole thing.

just my two cents

+2

If they forgot to tell you about ....

1) Fouling oil jets
2) Fouling Spark Plugs

This does not build up the trust I would need to fire it up.......when thier third Gem could be special thicker head gasket required....

Tornado machined the pistons from CP blanks.

We are confident that the pistons have more than the minimum amount of squish because its been measured as has the valve to piston clearance at 10deg +/- TDC to ensure that there won't be any valve clash.
I spoke to the importer, Sean of Sean Wilson Racing, and have a reasonable amount of confidence that we will be OK.
Tornado will, apparently, make the necessary changes to any subsequent pistons.

New plugs haven't arrived yet so I guess we'll do an initial run with my spare standard plugs shimmed out to 2.5mm.
I'll try to get Kev to do the heat runs today and Friday if possible so we can do a full dyno run on Saturday.
If it goes BANG I guess I'll be selling off the components to recover as much as possible of the costs!

Are you going to go to the dyno run Dave or sit at home and wait for the phone call with good or bad news? Hope it all works m8 and the pain and grief are worth it with great bhp figures.

fingers crossed ........I cannot wait

Everything crossed for you Dave. Good luck!

Kev can't do it today so start up will be Friday with dyno run on Saturday if everything goes well.

think positive it will all turn out fine

Start up day tomorrow.
Delete as appropriate:

The good news: ITS ALIVE
Started on the button first time and sounds great IMO.
Revs pickup and fall away instantly - much sharper than before.
We did a number of heat runs and then a gentle run in on the dyno up to about 6,000rpm.
Did an initial dyno run which is disappointing TBH: its making an initial (almost) 130bhp without the power commander fitted or the fueling fixed so there's probably another 2 or 3 bhp to be had as that is fixed and another 2 to 4 as it runs in - so 135* on Kev's dyno would be ok if it wasn't for the fact that there is no mid range gain at all!
No increase in torque or bhp until high up in the rev range.
I think its the cams that Tornado made for us - when we ran the cams originally they gave us no increase in top end but we lost loads of mid range so I have asked Kev to take out the high lift cams and put in the original ones - hopefully we'll get a similar top end and fill in some of the mid range and torque we were expecting with the increase in compression ratio.

Couple of clips, start up and first dyno run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Pppepd1xKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... m-P0qxbnUU

*To get the same reading on a Dynojet dyno you have to add on about 6% so: 135 on Kev's dyno equates to about 143bhp. All figures are RWHp of course.

Your right about revs dropping off quicker, god I miss that sound of the SD on full chat

Shame about the cams, BUT at least its going Dave.

So the high lift cams, does that just push the trumpets further during the stroke?

I can see why you're a little disappointed Dave. But after all the shit you've been though part of me would be chuffed she didn't go bang! Will be an interesting comparison to see what difference the cams make. 135bhp is not a figure to be sniffed at though for a standard SD. Midrange is where you really want the increases though.

Send it to me Dave. I'll use it.

Youl be wanting to come to Cadwel on Thursday then mate to run it in gently in the wet

Hello to Dave and everyone.Im new to the forum (first post) and I really am happy the bike runs so good.sounds great too.Looking to do something like this too in the future.Keep us posted!

Dave i'm up for Almeria with FE September, don't belive the 10 places left on there website they always say less than there actully are!

Any news on this dave?

Body work on yet? ready for Donington on the 15th by any chance?

Update 19/5/12:
Ran the SD with the stock cams in yesterday and other than the power curve flattening out for the last 750rpm there was absolutely no difference!
With the stock cams in, gas flow, hi comp pistons, DNA stage 3 airbox and Akrapovic evo the bike makes a solid 120bhp.
The torque curve and values are identical to the race cams and identical to what the bike was making before the standard pistons started to give up.
In other words: gas flow and high comp pistons have done absolutely nothing.
With the race cams in it makes 128bhp at our new rev limit of 9,750rpm.

I shall put the race cams back in simply because I've paid for them and they give an extra 6bhp just before the rev limiter cuts in and make no difference elsewhere.
The most expensive and useless power increase I have ever done at over £400/bhp. Nice.

Basically I cannot recommend any of these internal mods based upon my experience with this bike.

Still, at least it runs so I shall be nailing it back together in short order, not bothering with the bodywork and getting out on track asap.

Next: either I shall get an RC8R and flat bars or I shall flat-track a x-plane crank R1

Dave

It should make some extra ponies as it beds in ...so it will only get better

It's a shame the mods didn't give the results everybody on this forum hoped for!
But at least it is up and running again

Very weird that Dave. Stupid Luke and marksim both had nice improvements from gas flowing according to before and after dyno figures. Markism went from 120 to 128 I think and Luke gained 10bhp. I'm not sure what I gained as she is yet to hit the dyno.

Haven't heard how it feels when you ride it?
I put in a Motobox, Leo Vince CF, PC3, race gas, custom amps, SAS block offs, 520 chain, G2 quick throttle and aluminium sprocket and saw NO increase in HP or torque, to speak of anyway.
But holy hell!!!! The bike was a hugely different animal!
I am willing to bet that the bike will be a much different ride.

Swade is right, things like lighter ineternals are rarely noticed in the graphs but makes a huge difference when riding.

stick with it dave

Mate get some advise from an reputable expert to dial in the cams, a couple of degrees earlier or later makes huge differences in either power or torque.
Regarding the HP let it bed in a bit and se how it goes.

Are these cams adjustable then? I'd def not be too downhearted Dave. My seat of pants dyno says mine is making more grunt in the middle now the rings have bedded in.

you will need run the engine with bigger throttle bodies otherwise all your mods will not do a lot. The 48 ones are already small
for the stock engine thats why removing the second throttle plate workes so well.
Put some 52 SDR or RC8 bodies on top of the enginge and you will see what poweer your engine can really provide.
They even work nicely with just a slightly modified head, i have only modified the upper intake to have them fit nicely.

the price of those is fair, buy them. You need to remove the secondaries again. Mount the new bodies. Open the throttle 100% and check
if there is still a little bit of metall from the intake hose blocking the full flow after the rubber mounting. Mark it with an Edding. Stuff your intakes with cloth and seal it with some silicon or whatever you have on hand. Use your Dremel to fit the intake diameter to the new bodies.
Blast the metall away and you are good to go. Apart from that, the throttle bodies are plug and play.
Next step is to trim your current mapping down by approximatly -5% with TuneEcu. The 52mm bodies have a 14 hole spray so have a higher overall fuel throughput. With this you should be able to ride the bike, it will not be perfect, but it should run decent.
Finally a new Dynorun will be needed, i'm running Autotune with a Motty otherwise all these Dynoruns would have made me bankruped.

I detect an air of dispondancy in this thread Dave, BUT look at it this way, your ring was knackered and some work needed doing anyway, you may not have more BHP so the graph shows, but as others have said take it for a spin it may rev quicker and be a different beast to ride.

you have had it replated (bores), it is now a brand new motor... it will be feeling very tight... give her a few thousand km's and she will produce more.

that and some bigger throttle bodies

i would not go higher than max 9800. By the way, do you do track days ? If the answer is yes, i have two more tips for you :
1. Have a look at the breathing back pressure valve, it sits between the cylinders under your Airbox. There is an alloy valve
which you can screw open. Take out the spring and metall ball. This will release crank case preassure and avoids leaks
at the cylinder base. You know that quite some folks struggle with that.
2. Change your cooling system to the SDR standard. You can buy the SDR cooling impellar and also the SDR waterpump
housing. This will avoid overheating as the new impellar has a way better design.

SDR must be built 08 or newer to have 52mm diameter basically the ones with 130 ponies, all RC8 have them too ...

I have found a set of 2008 SDR throttle bodies.
Internal diameter at the bottom is 51.8mm - obviously they are bigger than the standard SD ones but are they the right ones?

.......and the intake rubbers are also different on the SDR.

yes they are the right ones. The heads of the 130 SDR's are different. They use also different CAM's and bigger inlet valves.
The CAM is not needed, what helps the SD heads is porting and usage of the bigger SDR inlets valves followed by a flow bench to see
if the work has been done correctly, here you can see some examples and where the losses are at a the inlet port :

http://supermoto-umbauten.de/166/Zylind ... itung.html

The 52mm throttle bodies can be used without any work on the normal SD heads, but this is more or less useless because
the inlet port has a too small diameter, so as i wrote before you need to grind some material of the inlet port to make
good usage of them. Since Tripodave has already portet heads it should be no big deal to grind a few mm of the inlet ports
at top.

Latest update: 28/06/12
New throttle bodies have arrived (off an SDR) so I took them over to Kev's and we offered them up.
They'll go straight on and although we could grind off a little from the intake trumpets we'll go with them as they are. We offered them up against tthe standard bodies and there is as much as 4mm difference in internal diameter and the injectors are visibly bigger and more exposed.
Kev will fit them and remove the secondary butterflies, motor and spindles.

Kev has managed to fit Cheesie's SDR headers after much cutting, spreading and welding and has married them up to my Evo cans and 'Y' piece.

Kev has ordered a special wax/polymer coating for the new carbon fiber tank (£87 off ebay - result!) and that should be fitted this week as well.

High lift cams are back in and a compression and leak test has been run - no losses and 225psi against the stock bikes 185 so at least that bit's working.

Only other thing to do is fit the race mask and we are good to go!

Dyno run is planned for Tuesday 3rd July.
Any bets as to what she'll make now?

Just got the suspension setup and then run at Rockingham on Sunday 8th July.

I think you should set up a live webcam Dave. We would all be glued to it to see the results

Internet connection at Kev's isn't the best.
How about I video it and post on You tube?
Or is there a way to live stream using my mobile?

[quote="tripoddave"]Latest update: 28/06/12
New throttle bodies have arrived (off an SDR) so I took them over to Kev's and we offered them up.
They'll go straight on and although we could grind off a little from the intake trumpets we'll go with them as they are. We offered them up against tthe standard bodies and there is as much as 4mm difference in internal diameter and the injectors are visibly bigger and more exposed.
Kev will fit them and remove the secondary butterflies, motor and spindles.

Kev has managed to fit Cheesie's SDR headers after much cutting, spreading and welding and has married them up to my Evo cans and 'Y' piece.

Kev has ordered a special wax/polymer coating for the new carbon fiber tank (£87 off ebay - result!) and that should be fitted this week as well.

High lift cams are back in and a compression and leak test has been run - no losses and 225psi against the stock bikes 185 so at least that bit's working.

Only other thing to do is fit the race mask and we are good to go!

Dyno run is planned for Tuesday 3rd July.
Any bets as to what she'll make now?

136bhp

I think you'll gain maybe a few hp but the overall experience should be noticeably better with the inlets having more capacity.

Dave

not to sure about 'R' headers....I lost a huge amout of mid range (droped off below 7,000 like a cliff)...I think you need Cams to make them work..and then only at the redline

What do we win if we guess the right HP numbers.?????
I'll guess...134

tough call 5-10 bhp more than last time

I'm going for 137 as well. Good luck Dave.

136

i would be interested to see the fuel correction factors you need to apply. The injectors have a higher flow but no
details are known and i have seen some weired figures from others running the 52mm bodies ...

131
So that's up 2.5 @ 9,500 but down 9bhp @ 6,000 and only breaking even at 7,000
bollox
that's it for me.
I'm going to put the std throttle bodies back on in an attempt to claw back some mid-range and run again but basically I've had enough


should look on the bright side: its up 10bhp at the rear wheel against an (akra, flies and airbox) SDR on Kev's dyno but, FML, the MONEY I've thrown at this for nothing is seriously depressing.

I would try what ktm666 has sugested too

Hi Dave,
can you post a print of your dyno and ill post mine,"mine will be tomoz as i need to scan it "
I bought a set of the 08 SDR headers off KTM666 and to be honest i like the way my bike runs.
As you know and as shown below is all my mods,ive got 129.23 bhp @ 9727 rpm and 77.53 ft/lb @8346.1 rpm.

^^^^

Could be interesting....

Sorry about your woes Dave, but need to know how it rides and feels.

Gutted for you dude. For effort alone you deserved that bike to make 140bhp. Hope you get to the bottom of whats causing the problem.

A few things have changed in your engine and I don't want to slag of a tuner just add a few ideas and some different thinking.

Since the compression has increased you need to have a proper look at the ignition advance, this can add or remove heaps of torque and horsepower.
The trick is to get a steady and safe RPM on the dyno in the region of maximum torque and steady throttle. then slowly add a few degrees of advance and see if the hp/ torque goes up or down.
Try also removing a few degrees, you might have too much advance due to the flame front traveling faster.
If you found the torque increasing, work you way past it till it drops off at both ends and find the sweet spot in the middle. While you do this keep an eye (or ear) out for detonation. It takes time but it is worth it. After you worked a baseline out try to apply this to the rest of the ignition curve and do another run.

What I find also funny is that nobody has done a flow test on the injectors. I had a look at it and I recon that the SD ones are max 130hp, don't know about the SDR ones.
Someone needs to put them on a flow tester and run them at the SD fuel pressure which I believe is 43psi.
The SDR injectors look the same as the RC8 so they should be higher flow maybe up to 175 hp, the interesting question as asked above is how much did you had to adjust the map?
Keep in mind that the max recommended duty cycle for injectors is 80%.

Also did anyone had a look at the cam timing?

As promised heres my dyno printout,
this was done at Bob Farnhams

Can't read the dyno chart....little help please. What are the numbers?

05/06 SD presumably? Tidy sums.