The killer brakes again...

mate that sucks a$$ big time, glad to hear you're ok!
so your bike has the 4 pad brembos or the radial ones?
I have a monster with the 4 pad type and i've never heard of any issues like this with the ducatis, 4 pad or radial, only here about the SD. is it a salt related issue?

paul.

Never heard of it on anything else with Brembos. That used to just mean Ducatis and race bikes which were unlikely to be used on salted roads anyway.

Brembos are becoming increasinly common though. They are even standard on new GSXR600.

I seem to remember from Russ's thread there was some reaction between the Brembo caliper and the backing plates material of certain pads that KTM were using as OEM (think Bendix but not certain) and it was thought that those using Brembo's own pads or aftermarket EBC should be ok.

I dont know the details of these latest instances to know if that is still the case.

I am no expert in this area, but just trying to understand the situation. Is it a case of the brake pads causing the siezure, the pistons, or a combination of both. from my understanding it is happening irrepsective if the brake is applied or not. However please corrent me if I am wrong.

Pad friction material delaminates from backing metal (which corrodes) and expands, biting into disc gradually and then grinds to a halt.

Or at least thats my opinion.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. So with the correct pads (ones that do not corrode) the problem should be eliminated. Or is that a bit too simplistic?

Nothing substitutes good maintenance, cleaning, servicing. But quality parts count too.

Lobster, thanks for the post, since last week my brake started binding as well.
I never had a brake problem on the 06 model which i traded in for an 08 at the end of September.

The current bike (2008) has only 11000kms on it. (just 1000kms by me)
I reckon that the problem must have started during a period of none use over the Christmas.

When I took her out for the 1st time last week I ended up on my *rse exiting a roundabout - at first I put it down to cold roads and being out of form due to not having been on the bike for a few weeks. Thinking back now, it must have been down to the brakes as I felt quite a lot of resistance when I pushed the bike out.

And when I went into work this morning while in the overtaking lane my speed suddenly started dropping & the engine was straining.
Thankfully I could get across the 2 lanes and was able to park in the cutter (no hard shoulder) before anything bad happend. I got a 'burning' smell and I was unable to move the bike for a few minutes. The discs are showing blue dis-colouring which is a pure sign of overheating. After the discs cooled down again I was able to ride off again.
Thankfully I had no trouble on the way home.

I rang the dealer (not a KTM dealer anymore might I add) and he told me to come in and get the callipers cleaned out ... he'll pick me up with a van if needed. (At least he's taking it serious)

It is more than ridiculous. This bike has not been riding in bad weather conditions much and has been cleaned and maintained very well.
I read somewhere that KTM are hiding behind a statement that the callipers are 'race spec' and should be cleaned & checked before and after every ride... considering this is a road bike this is not practical and unrealistic.

I am hoping it its down to pads as these are easier to replace then the callipers.

Surely there are other bikes with the same brake set up - do these not have the same problems?

Lobster I know that the pistons have a teflon like covering. if this have broken down or been removed or damaged when cleaning then this could be part of the problem. I know new pistons and seals are about £60-ish a calliper. Just a thought.

This post in no way suggests that you are at the wrong end of the brake problem. It is only posted to have you take a look at the other side. When you clean the pistons and sleeves out you invariably push the piston back into it's sleeve. I believe that this amount of back pressure is enough to force the back check valve in the master cylinder, but does not alleviate the back check from being still a problem. There is a small orifice in the master that when the brakes are released it opens this orifice and let's the built up fluid pressure back into the reservoir. This has been a bone of contention on many a motorcycle brake systems. If you are experiencing continuous failure from pressure build up, I would take a good look up top and do a master rebuild.

None of this is exactly confidence inspiring...

My dealer's advice was "regular cleaning", which means stripping, but the one part of the bike I never mess with is the brakes. I'm no mechanic and if I mess up the brakes while cleaning them, then who's to blame if they fail? ...Plus these are road bikes. Just stating that the brakes are "track spec" (if that's what they are saying) doesn't wash with me, unless the bikes came with a warning before purchase. It needs sorting - by KTM, even though Brembo are the supplier.

I was about to change to EBC sintered pads. Am I wasting my time and money?

I also use the EBC and they are next level on from Brembos. A good tip is that when you fit them, use a permanent marker to draw an arrow on the reverse side of the pad for wheel direction. Then if you ever take them out to clean ect you won't put them back in the wrong way round.

Follow on from last nights post.

As I said I brought the bike back to the dealer this morning and I could hear the tell-tale sound of pads on discs all the way.
The dealer took the calipers off and cleared all the curd and crap and replaced the corroded pads with new ones (all free of charge)
He asked me to come back in a month time so he can check them over again.

The dealer explained to me that the problem (IHO) was that these calipers have 4 lose pads are very tightly fitted into the calipers. As dirt and road crap gets into the calipers and builds up it eventually stops the pads from returning to the original position. Friction & heat do the rest.

As he is a former KTM dealer he still has his contacts and told me he will get on to KTM to riase their awareness.
He did say that KTM are actually quite good when it comes to dealing with service issues. Their testing is extensive but do not take into account the UK & irish road conditions.

He is now the main Honda dealer and said that he is more shocked by the electical/wiring issues he comes across on the likes of VFR's and Pan Euro's. KTM has only started producing road bikes since 2005 and still have a learning curve but are responding well to issues. Honda and the likes have a few decades more experience.

So it seems the key is to keep the calipers under check and ensure that they are cleaned on a regular basis.

For what it's worth, I ride weekdays at least all year round on both the SDR and 996S - 'normal' winter routine for both is weekly caliper wash in situ with monthly pads out clean and regrease, and in snow/ice/salt, it's daily and weekly respectively - Ferodo or EBC pads - regular cleaning/maintenance and, just as importantly I think, regular use has avoided such problems for me, at least so far.

Cool. EBCs it is then...

Any tell tell signs of impending binding we can all look out for, especially on visual inspection?

It really is surprisingly easy to install new pistons and seals. A good tip is to zip tie the brake lever closed when you remove the calliper from the brake mine. This stops the brake fluid dripping out and makes bleeding the brakes a lot easier when you reconnect them.

My bad, I should have made it clearer. I removed the calliper from the fork before zip tying the brake lever. I make sure I have pumped enough brake fluid through the system to push the pistons almost all the way out on that calliper (keeping reservoir topped up with new fluid). This makes removing the pistons from the calliper a lot easier. Make sure you have both callipers to this point before removing a calliper from the line, as you won't be pushing the pistons out without the hydraulic pressure. I think some people use an air line but I don't have one so that wasn't an option.
As there is nothing stopping the pistons moving out there is no pressure, so no need to open the bleed valve before removing the brake line. Also as the brake lines internal diameter is so narrow the brake fluid holds itself in there line which again makes bleeding a lot easier.
Once the calliper is stripped and cleaned (don't loose the tiny o-ring that sits between the two halves) I put a few drops of fluid in each pot before I reinsert the pistons. Just helps prime the calliper and again makes bleeding a lot easier.

I had my third discussion on this subject with my dealer, as I changed from my barely-worn OE pads to EBC HH sintered pads, and they said that regular maintenance by the dealer during servicing should be enough to keep the pads in working order.

My question was; what can the average rider do if they're not comfortable stripping and cleaning their own calipers, on what is, after all, a bike being sold for road use? ...My Audi dealer doesn't ask me to service my own brakes, so why should KTM?

My dealer sells and service a huge volume of KTMs in the UK and they told me none of their bikes has ever had their brakes fail in this way, but that they stripped and cleaned them at every service. I hope they're right.

I can't believe this problem is still happening !

For those not away here is one of the original posts from 2009 !!