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Scentific Snatch Approach
70 posts · Started by Zenbiker · 22 May 2008
Post 2 by VegasSD,
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Post 3 by SDSmurf,
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Post 4 by 9nine0,
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Post 5 by Allan P.,
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Post 6 by weeksy,
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Post 7 by Chris,
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Post 8 by kendo57,
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Post 9 by BASH69,
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Post 10 by kiwi,
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Post 11 by Twisted Jester,
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Post 12 by Zenbiker,
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Post 13 by weeksy,
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Post 14 by WillR,
#142005 Euro model
Renegade slip on cans
6500 miles
SAS Removal
No noticeable snatch
Since I've had it, I've also had Akra slip on map installed.
Still no snatch.
Renegade slip on cans
6500 miles
SAS Removal
No noticeable snatch
Since I've had it, I've also had Akra slip on map installed.
Still no snatch.
Post 15 by superDUKE220,
#15Good stuff, guys, I can already see a little sunshine. Let's run this for the next week and get as many riders as possible to contribute. TwistedJester, is the 2005 injected or carbed?
Post 16 by topendz,
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Post 17 by Twisted Jester,
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Post 18 by WillR,
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Post 19 by Sinex,
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Post 20 by Bobaworld,
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Post 21 by Bobaworld,
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Post 22 by Plipton,
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Post 23 by Plipton,
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Post 24 by DukeKook,
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Post 25 by Bodge,
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Post 26 by Zenbiker,
#26Old bike:
2005 UK model (Orange, of course - shut it, Dr F ).
Sold with 3300 miles on it last week.
From new it used to stall quite a bit (up to twice a day at its worst) with stock cans and map.
On/off throttle quite snatchy and would hunt on a steady throttle under 6000.
15/20 minute idle trick would always make the snatchiness go away for a few miles but it always came back again!
1 year old I added Akra Evo slipons and 503D03 map. Made little difference to snatchiness or stalling.
2 years old bought Tuneboy.
Played around a bit but returned it to stock map.
ECU reset was a lot quicker than the idle trick and seemed to do the same job (although it made idle erratic for a few minutes)
Did 2 days at Jerez (300+ miles) Oct 07. Since then it got better and only stalled twice (incidentally the 1st was after I picked it up after a month lay up and the battery barely started the engine so alternator must have been working over time). 2nd stall was out of the blue.
Last month added G2 300 cam and snatchiness got a lot better.
Now sold
New bike:
2008 SDR
Too soon to be able to make any judgements but fitted G2 cam
Edited to add - 05 bike had cat on original silencer, but no cat with Akras.
2005 UK model (Orange, of course - shut it, Dr F ).
Sold with 3300 miles on it last week.
From new it used to stall quite a bit (up to twice a day at its worst) with stock cans and map.
On/off throttle quite snatchy and would hunt on a steady throttle under 6000.
15/20 minute idle trick would always make the snatchiness go away for a few miles but it always came back again!
1 year old I added Akra Evo slipons and 503D03 map. Made little difference to snatchiness or stalling.
2 years old bought Tuneboy.
Played around a bit but returned it to stock map.
ECU reset was a lot quicker than the idle trick and seemed to do the same job (although it made idle erratic for a few minutes)
Did 2 days at Jerez (300+ miles) Oct 07. Since then it got better and only stalled twice (incidentally the 1st was after I picked it up after a month lay up and the battery barely started the engine so alternator must have been working over time). 2nd stall was out of the blue.
Last month added G2 300 cam and snatchiness got a lot better.
Now sold
New bike:
2008 SDR
Too soon to be able to make any judgements but fitted G2 cam
Edited to add - 05 bike had cat on original silencer, but no cat with Akras.
Post 27 by wrebitup,
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Post 28 by weeksy,
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Post 29 by squidward,
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Post 30 by VegasSD,
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Post 31 by chipsngravy,
#31Zenbiker,
Just an fyi, I'm still researching this problem as well.
I'm trying to determine if the injector duration is adjustable.
If they are it should be possible to eliminate the 'fuel cutoff' above 5000 rpm; this in my opinion causes alot of the snatchiness.
Just an fyi, I'm still researching this problem as well.
I'm trying to determine if the injector duration is adjustable.
If they are it should be possible to eliminate the 'fuel cutoff' above 5000 rpm; this in my opinion causes alot of the snatchiness.
Post 32 by warh0rn,
#32When I had my RC-51, Dan Kyle did my suspension and Power Commander set-up. He has a lot of cool bikes in his shop.
Anyway, here's my data:
- 2007 SD US model
- Ti Akrapovic Slip-ons (hex-shape, not the round ones) with baffles installed.
- stock ECU with the KTM Akra map (what ever was available in Aug '07). Reset performed when the ECU was remapped.
- no alarm
The snatchiness was marginally reduced when I changed the exhaust and had it remapped. Mostly, I've controlled snatchiness with the throttle. The snatchiness comes from the transition from fully closed throttle to open throttle. If I keep the throttle slightly open it eliminates the snatch. Sometimes, that's a bit tricky to do though and if I blow it, then I'll clutch to smooth out the transition.
I'm in the bay area too. If Dan wants to look at another SD for comparison, I could bring my bike to his shop.
Anyway, here's my data:
- 2007 SD US model
- Ti Akrapovic Slip-ons (hex-shape, not the round ones) with baffles installed.
- stock ECU with the KTM Akra map (what ever was available in Aug '07). Reset performed when the ECU was remapped.
- no alarm
The snatchiness was marginally reduced when I changed the exhaust and had it remapped. Mostly, I've controlled snatchiness with the throttle. The snatchiness comes from the transition from fully closed throttle to open throttle. If I keep the throttle slightly open it eliminates the snatch. Sometimes, that's a bit tricky to do though and if I blow it, then I'll clutch to smooth out the transition.
I'm in the bay area too. If Dan wants to look at another SD for comparison, I could bring my bike to his shop.
Post 33 by the-bunker,
#332007 SDR
8,500 kms
Standard apart from Akra race slip ons and akra map
Erratic fueling in the 3 - 5000 rev range [surging? snatchy? call it what you will...]
Also on-off-on transition under 5k a bit rough shall we say?
Changed to standard map - improved but not cured in the 3 -5000 range but over all unacceptable loss of power.
Back on the akra map and dealing with it.
Will go the G2 throttle route I think - going to get a 690 Duke for my commuting so it won't be a big issue for my normal back country riding and track days...
8,500 kms
Standard apart from Akra race slip ons and akra map
Erratic fueling in the 3 - 5000 rev range [surging? snatchy? call it what you will...]
Also on-off-on transition under 5k a bit rough shall we say?
Changed to standard map - improved but not cured in the 3 -5000 range but over all unacceptable loss of power.
Back on the akra map and dealing with it.
Will go the G2 throttle route I think - going to get a 690 Duke for my commuting so it won't be a big issue for my normal back country riding and track days...
Post 34 by VegasSD,
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Post 35 by TaliG,
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Post 36 by dade,
#36I owned a honda hornet 900 and follwed a lot of advises in Dan's site www.919.org. He's absolutely one who knows!
First bike (stolen at 7300 km)
2007 euro Superduke (italy).
Std exhausts
No powercommander
KTM OE alarm
Broke in mostly in city traffic, little km, lot of hours of engine work.
The bike was surging between the 4000-5000rpm range at steady throttle, then if accelerating moderately/slowly the response was poor but after a while she was going like should have been.
THIS PROBLEM ONLY SHOWED UP IN THE FIRST THREE GEARS!
Using 100 octane gasoline TAMOIL WR100 gave a smoother response less snatchiness/surge etc... Shell Vpower 100 instead did not gave good results especially at high revs
Snatchy response to the throttle openings from close (2.000-3.500 rpm)
ECU reset done after 1000km service and at 3500 km: helped for a while.
Some days were worse than others, but especially with the engine cold.
Lots of stalling issues
Second bike (the current I own)
2007 euro Superduke (italy).
Std exhausts
No powercommander
No alarm
Broke in in two days going around the alps, with full accelerations from low revs, the engine is much better than the previous
2000 km on the tacho
The bike surges between the 3500-5000rpm range at steady throttle, then if accelerating moderately/slowly the response is poor but after a while she goes like should. Almost like the previous but less evident... (but has less kms), more with the engine cold or not very hot
THIS PROBLEM ONLY SHOWS UP IN THE FIRST THREE GEARS ALSO IN THIS ONE!
Less snatchy response than the previous one to the throttle openings from close but always in the same range (2.000-3.500 rpm)
Never stalled until now
First bike (stolen at 7300 km)
2007 euro Superduke (italy).
Std exhausts
No powercommander
KTM OE alarm
Broke in mostly in city traffic, little km, lot of hours of engine work.
The bike was surging between the 4000-5000rpm range at steady throttle, then if accelerating moderately/slowly the response was poor but after a while she was going like should have been.
THIS PROBLEM ONLY SHOWED UP IN THE FIRST THREE GEARS!
Using 100 octane gasoline TAMOIL WR100 gave a smoother response less snatchiness/surge etc... Shell Vpower 100 instead did not gave good results especially at high revs
Snatchy response to the throttle openings from close (2.000-3.500 rpm)
ECU reset done after 1000km service and at 3500 km: helped for a while.
Some days were worse than others, but especially with the engine cold.
Lots of stalling issues
Second bike (the current I own)
2007 euro Superduke (italy).
Std exhausts
No powercommander
No alarm
Broke in in two days going around the alps, with full accelerations from low revs, the engine is much better than the previous
2000 km on the tacho
The bike surges between the 3500-5000rpm range at steady throttle, then if accelerating moderately/slowly the response is poor but after a while she goes like should. Almost like the previous but less evident... (but has less kms), more with the engine cold or not very hot
THIS PROBLEM ONLY SHOWS UP IN THE FIRST THREE GEARS ALSO IN THIS ONE!
Less snatchy response than the previous one to the throttle openings from close but always in the same range (2.000-3.500 rpm)
Never stalled until now
Post 37 by RhinosoRoss,
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Post 38 by weeksy,
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Post 39 by VegasSD,
#39Euro 2007 SD
No engine mods
No alarm
No snatch
4222 miles
Broken in using the heavy acceleration and engine braking method (in case that makes any difference).
No engine mods
No alarm
No snatch
4222 miles
Broken in using the heavy acceleration and engine braking method (in case that makes any difference).
Post 40 by dade,
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Post 41 by sdrk,
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Post 42 by TaliG,
#42as for me:
07 USA model
bone-stock, zero mods
Snatches like a mofo, mainly at lower RPMS in low gears. Sometimes reminds my of my Kawasaki H2...this is the WORST thing about the SD. If KTM can sort out this problem and smooth the EFI like Suzuki did on the SV bikes, they'll have my biz forever.
07 USA model
bone-stock, zero mods
Snatches like a mofo, mainly at lower RPMS in low gears. Sometimes reminds my of my Kawasaki H2...this is the WORST thing about the SD. If KTM can sort out this problem and smooth the EFI like Suzuki did on the SV bikes, they'll have my biz forever.
Post 43 by Sinex,
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Post 44 by smoky,
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Post 49 by Bobaworld,
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Post 50 by smoky,
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Post 56 by Zenbiker,
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Post 59 by Zenbiker,
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Post 60 by Zenbiker,
#60OK, looks like the new KTM map is a dead end. After reviewing the thread, there are some commonalities:
1) The bike suffers from a lean condition between roughly 3000 and 5000 rpm, characterized by surging or inability to maintain steady throttle setting. This is common on twin butterfly EFI VTwins, one that V-Strom owners know all too well. According to the responses, owners who have added cans and richened the feuling with KTM or PCIII/Tuneboy maps report improvement in the condition.
The responsibility for this problemis lies squarely at the feet of the EPA and Euro Emissions and noise standards; motorcycles are tested for emissions and noise in this range, hence the necessity for bone lean fueling which leads to surging and other aforementioned problems. Let's also not forget the second set of butterflies...
2) The severity of the condition likely is related to the atmospheric conditions of temperature, elevation, and pressure of the owner.
3) Without an ECU hack or piggyback black box, the problem of injector shutoff on closed throttle at low rpms isn't going to go away. BTW, the injector shutoff is usually programmed into the aforementioned rev range to further help a good motor pass ridiculous emissions and noise standards
4) Let's get back to the secondary throttle body plate. Anyone doing datalogging or dyno testing, it would be helpful if you could pay attention to when the ECU begins to open the secondaries. Secondary plates are used as noise and power limiters. I'd speculate these plates don't start to fully open until at least 5000 rpm if not later. Also note that in V-Stroms, the secondary plates were also programmed to close at high rpm to limit power.
5) Gears 1, 2, and 3. Whatever EFI programming that contributes to snatch problems seems to be only active in the first three gears, also a common finding among EFI bikes. Unfortunately, these are the gears where delicate throttle response is most desireable, i.e. when heeled over in a fast sweeper at or near the apex and modulating traction requires a delicate hand on the throttle and hopefully a delicate response by the bike.
6) Best results so far seem to revolve around balancing the TBs, an Akra or Vince exhaust system with either KTM, PCIII, or Tuneboy remap, and changing to a smoother throttle cam. Things are also looking good for the Mar airbox; however, make no mistake, these changes won't rid the bike of any issues related to the programming of the ECU by KTM, but it may make them more bearable, much in the way that a handful of ibuprofen and a couple of espressos make a migraine tolerable.
1) The bike suffers from a lean condition between roughly 3000 and 5000 rpm, characterized by surging or inability to maintain steady throttle setting. This is common on twin butterfly EFI VTwins, one that V-Strom owners know all too well. According to the responses, owners who have added cans and richened the feuling with KTM or PCIII/Tuneboy maps report improvement in the condition.
The responsibility for this problemis lies squarely at the feet of the EPA and Euro Emissions and noise standards; motorcycles are tested for emissions and noise in this range, hence the necessity for bone lean fueling which leads to surging and other aforementioned problems. Let's also not forget the second set of butterflies...
2) The severity of the condition likely is related to the atmospheric conditions of temperature, elevation, and pressure of the owner.
3) Without an ECU hack or piggyback black box, the problem of injector shutoff on closed throttle at low rpms isn't going to go away. BTW, the injector shutoff is usually programmed into the aforementioned rev range to further help a good motor pass ridiculous emissions and noise standards
4) Let's get back to the secondary throttle body plate. Anyone doing datalogging or dyno testing, it would be helpful if you could pay attention to when the ECU begins to open the secondaries. Secondary plates are used as noise and power limiters. I'd speculate these plates don't start to fully open until at least 5000 rpm if not later. Also note that in V-Stroms, the secondary plates were also programmed to close at high rpm to limit power.
5) Gears 1, 2, and 3. Whatever EFI programming that contributes to snatch problems seems to be only active in the first three gears, also a common finding among EFI bikes. Unfortunately, these are the gears where delicate throttle response is most desireable, i.e. when heeled over in a fast sweeper at or near the apex and modulating traction requires a delicate hand on the throttle and hopefully a delicate response by the bike.
6) Best results so far seem to revolve around balancing the TBs, an Akra or Vince exhaust system with either KTM, PCIII, or Tuneboy remap, and changing to a smoother throttle cam. Things are also looking good for the Mar airbox; however, make no mistake, these changes won't rid the bike of any issues related to the programming of the ECU by KTM, but it may make them more bearable, much in the way that a handful of ibuprofen and a couple of espressos make a migraine tolerable.
Post 61 by Plipton,
#61Zenbiker, see the post in technical titled 2nd/3rd gear sensor. I connected and disconnected the sensor 4 times and rode the bike. no discernable differences felt by my ass or brain. No one responded.
This forum is great and drastically reduced the time it took me to sort my bike. The big problem is too many members approach problems with an unscientific approach-many variables and changes before any testing occurs.
I did this gear sensor work before I changed anything on a completely stock bike. IT MAKES NO DIFFERNCE TO THE WAY THIS BIKE RUNS.
the next thing I did was replace the O2 sensors with dynojets O2 eliminators. yes, that's right, I did not originally purchase a PCIII, you can purchase the eliminators for $15.00 each. This made a difference in the throttle snatch and the surging but did not cure either. I could feel the difference in the way the bike ran. it was slightly smoother.
Next, it was time for my first service. the dealer loaded the updated stock map. It also made a slight difference initially but then after about 2 runs the bike ran exactly as it had before the updated map. This temporary improvement was probably due to the ecu reset.
My next step was to balance the throttle bodies. This completely eliminated the surging between 3-5K rpms and made the snatchy throttle better as well.
I felt like the snatchy throttle was due to low fueling so I purchased the PCIII. I loaded map 925-001. This is an advanced map for a stock us bike. This improved the snatchy throttle but again didnt entirely eliminate it.
I added 2% more fuel in the low and mid rpm ranges using the power commander and this also made a small improvement in the snatchy throttle. I added another 2% and this also improved it but I believe the fueling was a bit too rich at this point. The richer the fueling the less abrupt the throttle and the opposite is also true. The leaner the fuel map the worse the throttle abruptness.
I really don't think anything is wrong with the bike at this point. I have eliminated 95% of the problems with snatchiness and surging and am now very happy with the bike.
I believe if everyone out there having problems with their machines would take a step by step approach, changing one variable at a time they may just find the answers to their individual problems.
I understand that we all may experience the problems differently but you must approach your situation scientifically or you just create frustration.
This bike is always going to have the abrupt throttle(have you read any of the stories of the 06 FZ1, that bike was unridable) but I think you can tune it to an acceptable level.
This forum is great and drastically reduced the time it took me to sort my bike. The big problem is too many members approach problems with an unscientific approach-many variables and changes before any testing occurs.
I did this gear sensor work before I changed anything on a completely stock bike. IT MAKES NO DIFFERNCE TO THE WAY THIS BIKE RUNS.
the next thing I did was replace the O2 sensors with dynojets O2 eliminators. yes, that's right, I did not originally purchase a PCIII, you can purchase the eliminators for $15.00 each. This made a difference in the throttle snatch and the surging but did not cure either. I could feel the difference in the way the bike ran. it was slightly smoother.
Next, it was time for my first service. the dealer loaded the updated stock map. It also made a slight difference initially but then after about 2 runs the bike ran exactly as it had before the updated map. This temporary improvement was probably due to the ecu reset.
My next step was to balance the throttle bodies. This completely eliminated the surging between 3-5K rpms and made the snatchy throttle better as well.
I felt like the snatchy throttle was due to low fueling so I purchased the PCIII. I loaded map 925-001. This is an advanced map for a stock us bike. This improved the snatchy throttle but again didnt entirely eliminate it.
I added 2% more fuel in the low and mid rpm ranges using the power commander and this also made a small improvement in the snatchy throttle. I added another 2% and this also improved it but I believe the fueling was a bit too rich at this point. The richer the fueling the less abrupt the throttle and the opposite is also true. The leaner the fuel map the worse the throttle abruptness.
I really don't think anything is wrong with the bike at this point. I have eliminated 95% of the problems with snatchiness and surging and am now very happy with the bike.
I believe if everyone out there having problems with their machines would take a step by step approach, changing one variable at a time they may just find the answers to their individual problems.
I understand that we all may experience the problems differently but you must approach your situation scientifically or you just create frustration.
This bike is always going to have the abrupt throttle(have you read any of the stories of the 06 FZ1, that bike was unridable) but I think you can tune it to an acceptable level.
Post 62 by Plipton,
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Post 63 by Plipton,
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Post 64 by Plipton,
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Post 65 by the-bunker,
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Post 66 by Plipton,
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Post 67 by the-bunker,
#67Wow - that is nasty & glad to hear you still got your leg !
Best wishes for a speedy recovery...
Best wishes for a speedy recovery...
Post 68 by Marq,
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Post 69 by TaliG,
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